Bryan Sanchez · 00:02

Well, good morning. We're really excited to have you on the show with us, Mike.

Michael Winslow Brown · 00:07

It's an honor to be here.

Bryan Sanchez · 00:09

looks like you're sitting in your beautiful Denver home, your your oasis and really your temple in a lot of ways. We I've been there, it's an amazing place. Yeah, a figurative temple and a literal temple.

Divya Brown · 00:21

And we can see the temple behind you, right? It's awesome. I love it.

Bryan Sanchez · 00:28

Well, we we we have already introduced you, Mike, on this conversation. and so we wanna just jump right in this morning. And there's a lot we're gonna talk about today, you know, starting with the fact that you are have just launched a new book called Be Rich Now, which is a book I have read and also even before the publishing of the book.

a lot of concepts that I have learned from you over the last year. it's a brilliant book. Everyone should go out and buy it as soon as it's officially published later this fall. But we're gonna talk a lot about the central concepts of the book. Before we jump into it, I think it's valuable for our listeners to just start with your origin story. You have a you have an amazing life that you've already lived in your forty five plus or minus years. And I th I j I always find your story inspiring. So I'm excited to hear it again. So let's just start. You you're you're the first born of five in in a family from Midland, Texas. Tell us about growing up in Midland and and where your path took you.

Michael Winslow Brown · 01:50

Yeah, Midland's a a wild place because it's the second wealthiest per capita after Greenwich, Connecticut. And it's very pointy at the top. So, you know, there's a lot of oil money there, and there's a lot of contrast there. And I was acutely aware, you know, my my dad was an engineer for a large corporation. And in the 90s, oil wasn't doing that well and and things were tight. And it's so I was acutely aware from a young age that I had a lot of friends with a whole lot of money and that wasn't us. And so that really set the stage for me to, you know, be ambitious and and go out and achieve and you know, in many ways, follow the path of you know, work hard in school, get really good grades, you can go to the right college, you know, get a you know, move on from there. And so, you know, from a young age, I wanted to go to the Naval Academy.

when I was in third grade. I read Patriot Games by Tom Clancy, and I was gonna be Jack Ryan. I wanted to go to the Naval Academy, that was the path I was gonna follow. And I never deviated from the path. I mean, from then, kind of everything I did was focused on getting into the academy. And and it worked. You know, in in 1999 I went to the Naval Academy, and it was not what I thought it was gonna be. And so we we can kind of dive into that. but you know, growing up in Midland definitely

Divya Brown · 02:47

Great book. I love it.

Michael Winslow Brown · 03:13

shaped a lot of my money stories, which we'll we'll definitely dive into a little bit later. But you know, during that time in the 90s, there was a time when my parents were fighting about money a lot. And I just remember looking at them and going, that's never gonna be me. Like I'm gonna make so much money that I never have to fight with my partner about money. And and that was kind of the core driver that formed at that time.

Bryan Sanchez · 03:39

You have a an anecdote in your book about being in middle school and being dropped off by your dad and asking your dad to drop you a few blocks from school because you didn't want to get out of the car that he drove. I I just that's such a poignant reflection on where your head was at that time in a in a in a place like like Midland with with this huge wealth disparity. How much did that how much does that really influence the next twenty years of your life?

Michael Winslow Brown · 04:16

Yeah, we had we had a 1985 Pontiac Bonneville, which is just a monster tank of a car. It was brown with some rust colorations, and we had thumbtacks in the headliner to keep it from falling down. And you know, to my 13-year-old brain, this car is so embarrassing. and so I I had my dad drop me off a block from school so no one would see us in it. And it really was kind of a microcosm of like, I'm gonna I'm gonna make so much money that I can buy whatever car that I want. And you know, 20 years later, I did it. I mean, I I bought you know, after we made our first money in in my company, went out and bought a car and kind of never stopped. Was was constantly buying cars. And and the the crazy thing about this is that I love cars. My dad loved cars. Like this is the, you know, we used to go to car shows when I was young. He would, he would talk all about the specs and and so I loved cars. So it's not like I was, you know, totally unconsciously doing this thing just to to prove to the world that I was somebody I wasn't. Like I loved cars, and there was a proving energy behind it. And that's the the separation that I really try to explain in the book is that it's not binary, right? It's not like it was just purely from these dirty fueled motives. There was an element of truth there. There was an element of joy there. And I loved my experiences with exotic cars. It was so much fun to have McLaren and Lamborghinis and you know all this crazy stuff. And it wasn't coming from a good place and and that that really is, you know, sort of a microcosm for everything that we kind of go into in the book.

Bryan Sanchez · 05:52

Yeah, you you you you mentioned that you had at the same time you were driving around in a Pontiac Bonneville, you had a Lamborghini Countosh poster on your wall, which which I'm sure a lot of 13-year-old boys in America had on their wall. But it's just fascinating how these stories get written into our psyche so early. and how, you know, at age seven or eight, you know, you need to go to the Naval Academy. When when I was in seventh grade, we were we were a homework assignment was to write your autobiography, past, present, and future, seventh grade.

I wrote in my future that I was gonna go to Harvard Business School and be a very successful businessman. I didn't know, no one in my world knew what that was. I didn't know what that was. And and and it was only 20, 10 or 15 years later where I opened that up and I said, I can't, I wrote I don't even know why I wrote this, but I wrote it.

And once those things get written, they get manifested. For better or for worse, they get manifested. And so and then, you know, twenty years later, you're you're living that life, which in many ways is a blessing. But then as you say, you get to the Naval Academy and it's not quite what you thought. So tell us about being a cadet. What's that like? Or a midshipman is what they call call call you guys, right?

Michael Winslow Brown · 07:25

Yeah, you know, I there's

There's so many, there's so much to unpack here. And by the way, it's taken me, you know, I graduated in 2003 and got out of the Navy in 2012. So it's taken me a really long time to kind of sort actually what was going on, you know, during that time. But after a lot of reflection on that period, what what really stands out to me is that you know, the the Naval Academy is in many ways this incredible institution.

Know the best and the brightest in the in the US are all there, you know, it's very difficult to get into. And at the same time, they there's so many rules at the Naval Academy that there's no way to actually get through the all four years without breaking rules. And you know, for my brain, if I'm gonna have to break rules to get through, then the rules aren't important. And I and I started systematically breaking every single rule just to test out that theory. And and the other part of that is that.

It's supposed to be this brotherhood and sisterhood, not to be gender normative, right? But you know, I'm gonna I'm supposed to be in a foxhole with these guys, with my life depending on them. And to me, that meant it's supposed to be us against them. So there was the rule makers and there's the rule breakers. And, you know, that was kind of how I thought things were gonna be. But they actually teach you there to like turn in your friends when they break rules.

And that didn't make any sense to me at all. I was like, wait a minute, if I'm supposed to be in a foxhole with this guy, like with my life depending on it, and he's turning me in for not shining my shoes, like I can't trust this person. And so there was so much dissonance in what does trust actually mean? And like, you know, how how am I supposed to navigate this? That I I really had a lot of anger at that time because it felt like a bait and switch. It it felt like

Michael Winslow Brown · 09:14

You know, this wasn't what I thought it was supposed to be. And, you know, again, that is that is a newer insight that I that I've only found after many years of kind of thinking about like, where did this rage against the proverbial machine come from when I was there? And I think it was that. It was, it was this idea that like we don't turn in our friends, but that's what they're telling me is the right thing to do. And that just doesn't make sense.

Divya Brown · 09:38

Mike, what you said is I love that, but it's not so obvious. I think a lot of people are in those moments, right? And they can't have that reflection. Like you said, it took you this long, right? Looking back, were there moments where maybe intuition was trying to speak to you, or or how do you think it displayed at that time that now you reflect on and see in a different way?

Michael Winslow Brown · 10:04

Yeah, I mean it it it you know I had been the best at everything most of my life and I got to the Naval Academy and quickly developed a reputation as, you know, a piece of shit, basically. which is which was new for me. There was like this whole new identity. And like I knew there was this element of self sabotage. Like I knew this wasn't who I am, but I couldn't reconcile it because there was all of this anger and I didn't you it

Divya Brown · 10:17

Ha ha ha.

Michael Winslow Brown · 10:32

At that time I certainly didn't have the tools to process those kind of emotions. It was, you know, teenage angst, for lack of a better word. I didn't really understand where it was coming from. So it really manifested in this outer way of like breaking the rules on purpose and like kind of inhabiting this whole new identity. And I I almost got kicked out many times. But even at the at the very end, I got put up for a performance review board a few weeks from graduation. And there are four officers and one midshipman, like a peer on the board. And I went into the board and it did not go well. Like the officers were grilling me, and I walked out for them to deliberate. And I was like, man, like this is it.

And I came back into the into the board, and they said, We voted to kick you out. Like we voted to separate you. Except your peer here, and and his name's John Lee Warner, and and thanks, John. He told us a story during plebe summer that he was gonna quit and like you talked him out of it and you really supported him and were there for him, and he thinks you're gonna make a great officer despite your performance, which was very lackluster here. And that was a defining moment of my life. Like had I been kicked out, you know, things would have gone a lot differently. And so, you know, there it there are all these little moments where things could go one way or the other, and your path unfolds, you know, based on these tiny little moments. And that was one for me.

And I just remember thinking, like, how did I get here? Like I wanted to come here so bad. I wanted to be good at this. And I just wasn't. And like, how did that happen? And then from there I went to flight school and I was like, okay, I'm not, I'm not gonna do it like that again. Like that that was bad. That was really miserable. And so I decided to, what's that?

Divya Brown · 12:21

And and why flight school? And why flight school?

Michael Winslow Brown · 12:26

yeah, I mean, so there's there's a various amount of things that you can sort of select coming out of the Naval Academy. You can be a Marine, you can be a ship driver, submariner. flight school, the aviators of the Naval Academy seemed like cool dudes, so I thought that was probably the route that I wanted to go. Yeah, totally. but I decided I was gonna be number one in flight school and and I was gonna work hard and you know I wasn't gonna repeat the same mistakes. And

Divya Brown · 12:41

Well well that tracks then. It all makes sense. I love the decision process.

Michael Winslow Brown · 12:53

The the fun thing about that is that like I was ranked 916 out of 960 in my Naval Academy class. So I was in the top 95%. And you know, the way that military does things is by order of merit. So you're you're supposed to select based on where you rank. So I was like, I'm gonna get number one. I'm never gonna let someone else control my rank again. I got number one and I wanted to fly P3s, which were a big slow spy plane, but it looked like a really great lifestyle and that seemed compatible.

So I walked into my commander's office and I said, I select P3s. And he said, Nope. The number one guy selects jets. I was like, but I I worked really hard. I got number one. I'm supposed to get what I want. He was like, That's right. The number one guy wants jets. And and that actually, you know, I got to the fighter squadron and it was the first time in my military career that I felt like I really fit in. And it was, it was such an amazing thing that someone else selected for me. And so,

You know, it it was it's wild how our path unfolds in ways that we could never predict and g not getting what you want sometimes ends up being the best thing that could ever happen to you.

Divya Brown · 14:00

Oftentimes, right?

Bryan Sanchez · 14:03

Yeah, the universe is taking care of us in ways we don't understand. So so y you become a fighter pilot, F-18 Hornet, and you're flying sorties off of aircraft carriers. I'm sure there's a hundred stories you could tell here and and and we don't quite have time for all that. But just give us a sense for what that's like. You know, that there you were in the middle of the Iraq war, I think you spent a lot of time in the Middle East during that that period. I'm sure you have a lot that that you and and your and your your colleagues who were serving at that time are still working through and I know it's been really impactful for you. Just give us a glimpse of what that was like, you know, wh how long were you served and what it was like for you.

Michael Winslow Brown · 14:55

Yeah, so I graduated in two thousand three, got my wings in two thousand five, and then was in Iraq from two thousand seven, two thousand eight, flying missions off the USS Harry S. Truman. And I would say that, you I have a complicated relationship with my military service. It's such a dichotomy. I mean, I two 25-year-old kids flying an $80 million jet is just this wild human experience that's hard to even put into words. And, you know, banging off the front end of an aircraft carrier, I think, is one of the coolest things a human can do. Just, you know, accelerating from zero to 187 knots in less than a second. I mean, hair on fire. It's it's just a wild ride. What I didn't fully grasp at the time was that.

The warrior's path is a sacred one and it's also heavy. And, you know, since I've really felt the cost of what the military service really is. You know, I've lost a lot of friends, I've lost a little more friends to suicide than I ever did in combat. And, you know, I I've realized, you know, that there is a heaviness associated with it that I probably couldn't account for at the time.

And then and then the other piece is PTSD, which is something that you know, we kind of have this societal idea of what that might be, which is like you watch your buddy's head get blown off and you have nightmares at night. And that certainly is a form of PTSD, and that's very real. But you know, for me, I almost died like a thousand times. And and that's that's not an exaggeration. You you you launch off, you know, you you're joining on another aircraft and you have this near-miss.

And you kind of don't even think about it. And you go back, you know, you land and you go to the bar and you have a beer and you're like, whoa, that was crazy. And then you just get up and do it again the next day. But your body normalizes that kind of stress, right? Over time. And so even though there, you know, there wasn't some moment where I was kicking doors and getting shot at and all of that stuff, you know, it was a really dangerous thing that I was doing. And you can't really account for that at the time. And and so

Michael Winslow Brown · 17:05

Again, much later unpacking the cost and and realizing like what the impact was on my nervous system and all of those stored near-death experiences that I never fully processed because the military teaches you how to compartmentalize and which is a a really valuable skill in combat, right? Like I mean, emotions have no place on the battlefield. You're there to do a mission, but the military doesn't do a great job of helping you learn how to unpack that on the backside when that compartmentalization is no longer really serving you. And so, you know, many of us get out and have to learn how to navigate that on our own when we're you know no longer in these situations. And and again, that's that's a really heavy price that I couldn't have known when I was signing up. And you know, I often wonder like if I could go back now and tell the 17 year old version of myself, like, hey, someday you're gonna be asked to kill people and it's not gonna feel the way you think it's gonna feel. Like could that guy have even heard me? And

The answer's no, right? And we're we the war machine has been turning long before any of us, long before the United States. and growing up in a patriotic West Texas town, you know, I thought serving in the military was the the highest form of of service and and you know duty and honor and and these words that are you know given to us from a very, very young age. And I I couldn't have possibly known the impact or the cost or or the heaviness of that path. And again, I do think the warrior's path is sacred. I think there's a lot of wisdom. And there's a there's a reason that a lot of the wisdom traditions and the warrior class have always been linked. so like I said, it's it's complicated. I'm really grateful for that time in my life. I'm I'm not necessarily grateful for the pain that is associated with it, but you know, I I wouldn't be where I am without that without that period.

Bryan Sanchez · 19:00

Yeah. One thing I Mike, you you publish a newsletter that comes out periodically and you're an incredibly good writer. I always appreciate what you write. And one of the things you've written about in reflecting on your years in the service is the hidden cost that none of us civilians fully appreciate. Yes, we know the people who are killed and the people who suffer physical injuries and come back maimed. That's all very clear. We see that.

But what people, what we can't really understand is the mental toll that so many people are coming back with. And of course, we read about PTSD and it's it's it's in the conversation, but you have written so eloquently about it. And it's a wonderful reminder to society in general about the the hidden and true cause of all these wars.

And so I I you know I I did not serve. I I have I have tremendous admiration for those of you who did. And I I wake up every day wondering, you know, about whether America really understands the the totality of what we're asking people to do. so really beautiful. you really helped me understand all of that better.

let me pivot now. you spend several years in the service, some pretty incredible experiences as you as you say, multiple near death experiences that that maybe didn't register at the time, but probably showed up later. but as a motivated guy, you get out of the service in I you I think you said twenty twelve and you are raring to go.

Bryan Sanchez · 20:56

'Cause it is now time to make money because that Lambergini Kuntosh is not going to show up in your driveway by itself. So talk talk to us about that. What did you do? How did you do it? And and and and and tell us a little bit more about your business career.

Michael Winslow Brown · 21:17

Yeah, so I I get out in two thousand twelve and I was back in Midland having lunch with a family friend and my uncle. And you know, my family was not wealthy growing up, but we had a lot of family friends who were and I was having lunch with them and basically kind of telling them plans when when I got out. And they said, No, you're gonna come work for us. It's the best time in the history of oil and gas to be in oil and gas. And so I moved back to Midland, Texas, which is nowhere I ever thought I would be. It's flat hot and windy and moved moved from San Diego back to to West Texas. was a was a pretty jarring experience. And I I worked for my mentors for about 18 months and then and then went out on my own. and I along the way brought my best friend from the Navy, Jay Consolvi, and we started our own firm together.

And and my mentor was right. Like it was the best time in the history of oil and gas to be in oil and gas. We we landed in the Permian right when they drilled the first horizontal well you know, that unlocked all kinds of new reserves and and really a resurgence and renaissance of the Permian Basin. And as Jay often says, I'd rather be lucky than good. You know, we had no idea what we were getting into.

And yeah, it was it was a wild ride. You know, we built an eight-figure investment firm over over five or six years and it was it was pretty incredible. And you know, the the thing that I look at now, which is so many entrepreneurs love to to talk about hard work and all these other things that make them successful. And and all of that's true. Like we showed up and and made really good decisions with the hand that we got dealt.

And I just can't tell the story without talking about luck and timing. You know, if we'd have showed up five years earlier, it would have been completely different. And if we showed up five years later, the window would have been closed. And we didn't do that. You know, and and and so you know, I I think it would just be a disservice to to not mention that you know it was a really incredible time. And and you know, even when we were doing it, I knew that we had tailwinds that that we weren't creating.

Michael Winslow Brown · 23:33

but at the same time, it also created this false sense of like this is easy. And I'm really good at this. And and it like I said, I it it played to my natural proclivities, like my, you know, for better or worse, I'm sort of a natural handicapper. I think in distributions of outcomes and and probabilities kind of naturally. And so I took to investing really well and could kind of see the the field in a way that probably many others couldn't. And and so

You know, I met the opportunity with agency and with good decisions. And and that is something I can take credit for and be proud of. But at the same time, you know, I can't extricate the the factor that that luck and timing played in in our success.

Bryan Sanchez · 24:16

So you're you're you're right place, right time, with all the right Hutzpah in order to accomplish this. And you're four or five years into this and you see an exit opportunity and you take it. Tell us about that.

Michael Winslow Brown · 24:32

Yeah, so so by that time, so so we were an aggregator. We we basically were buying minerals and royalties and packaging them up and selling them to private equity funds. And early on in the ride, you know, these funds would have three hundred million to a billion dollars and they wouldn't really look at deals under five million. So our opportunity as an aggregator would be to go vacuum up all the smaller deals, you know, fifty thousand to two and half million, put them together in these packages and sell them off. And and that was how we would make margin. Well

You know, by 2018, 2019, the private equity funds had gotten wise to what we were doing. They'd started standing up their own buying teams, and it was it became harder and harder for us to compete you know, with the end user. And I so I sort of saw the writing on the wall of like, hey, this this window of arbitrage is closing. And that fact plus, you know, when we started, we were buying acres at like 2,500 an acre. And by the time 2019 rolled around, it was like 25,000. And I started to feel like things were getting frothy and realizing like there was a lot more downside than upside left in this play. And so we decided to exit in 2019, sell with all of our assets. and it it was really cool. I mean, we we sold in July of 2019 and then got our second tranche in in January of 2020.

And everyone knows what happened in March of 2020. the world got a little crazy and you know, oil actually went negative for a little while during that thing. And so you know, the the timing once again was impeccable. And and then there I was. And you know, the thing about selling a company is i I had worked my entire life. I had done everything I was supposed to do, right? You know, I worked hard in school, you know, went and tested myself in combat, went and started this company.

I had the money and the house and the cars and like all the things people told me would make me happy. And you know, two weeks after the exit, I wake up and I go, shit, like I'm still the same person. And it didn't work. Like there's still this hole inside of me. And no. and so you know, that was really kind of the beginning of a very wild ride. And in many ways, I I feel like my sort my story sort of starts at the exit when I had kind of reached the mountaintop.

Michael Winslow Brown · 26:53

And realize that standing on top of the mountain, there's nothing up there except for a cold howling wind, as my as my friend Jeff Birmingham likes to say.

Bryan Sanchez · 27:01

Yeah. So you see so there's a there's a there's an excerpt in the book where you talk about how the ink was barely dry on the on the contract to sell the business. You're you're at this point a multi-millionaire. You're, you know, into the eight figures, life changing for you. I mean probably no one in your family's been anywhere in this position. You're still very young. And the question that everyone's asking you is, what are you doing next?

Michael Winslow Brown · 27:03

Yeah.

Michael Winslow Brown · 27:32

Yeah. and it it's you know, it's it's really interesting because I think as a society we have this idea that everything always has to be up and to the right. And, you know, there I was, just sold this company, and yeah, every everyone's coming out of the woodwork, like I can't wait to see what you do next. And I'm like, next, like this was really hard. And now I have to build something bigger and better. And and like that pressure was absolutely crippling. And I had no idea what I was gonna do it. You I had I had a lot of ideas, but you know, to to you know, stand on that mountaintop and then realize like I've got to climb an even bigger mountain was was totally crippling. And then also having this realization that like, no, you know, the money didn't fill me up, the accomplishment, the achievement didn't fill this hole inside of me. Like, what am I gonna do?

Bryan Sanchez · 28:24

So what do you do?

Divya Brown · 28:25

Yeah, and so where did that exactly? I was just thinking, you said that feeling of what am I gonna do next? Is that from you? Was that from the environment? Was that you said your family, you're you know, you're the wealthiest person in your family. So where do you really feel like that came from?

Michael Winslow Brown · 28:44

Yeah, I mean, great question. Because you know, as Brian said, I had this life-changing amount of money, you know, should have never had to work again. But my sights were set on a hundred million dollars. Like I thought I needed a hundred million dollars to be wealthy. And so, you know, we had made our money by I mean, we we were cowboys, you know, we were speculators. We were going all in, swinging for the fences, you know, money would come in, it would go out the door a as soon as it came in. And and that's

That's how we got rich. So, you know, there was never even a pause to to question like maybe I should be more conservative. Maybe I should put some of this away for later. It was just like, well, this is how we got here. Let's double down. And, you know, there is also you know something I call Midas touch syndrome, where like, I'm really good at this. This means I must be good at everything. And so I was investing in every deal that came across my desk. You know, we we'd actually started angel investing you know, some years before.

And just accelerated, deploying all of my capital into deal after deal after deal, into all kinds of industries, all kinds of companies, you know, things I had no business investing in. and you know, that culminated a couple years after my exit. I bought a distressed e-commerce company, and it was an unmitigated disaster. And and you know, really but it was a long time coming. You know, it was there, I I had taking big bets and gotten very lucky again and again and again, you know, kind of putting me on this crash course to, you know, finally having a reckoning.

Divya Brown · 30:21

So do you think that?

Is what you're articulating is that proving is that the feeling where is it proving to yourself? Was it proving to the world? I mean, I know all on all entrepreneurs for some reason have some money, it's some number, right? Hundred million, whatever it is. And I think each of us individually carries something that we're still trying to prove to ourselves. And so as you're telling that story, I'm hearing proving, proving, proving, yet I don't really understand where it came from because you proved so much, right?

Yeah.

Michael Winslow Brown · 30:53

You know, and and and this is, I think, the the ironic thing about proving energy is that you know, truly it's never enough. Try trying to fill an internal hole by external validation it is never gonna work. And but I was sure gonna test it. you know, I and and again, had I stopped to think, had I paused and been like, wait, what does this all mean? Like, do I really

Like, you know, hindsight's twenty-two. And there there's so many questions that I just simply didn't stop to ask. and so yeah, you know, I think there there is this element of, you know, proving that I'm enough, proving that I can do it. but also just sort of running on autopilot of like, well, this is what I've always done. So there was no reason to interrupt the pattern. There was no reason to stop and pause. Like it had worked. Like I I did everything I was supposed to do, and like here I was.

And and it all worked out. So, you know, there was no moment to to interrupt that pattern and and stop and ask like, wait, what what is this all for anyway?

Divya Brown · 32:01

reminds me of your earlier statement around the pattern with being a soldier, right? You're like, we just show up and we go into these dangerous environments and we just do it again and again and you probably have an amazing nervous system for that, right? That's what you've created.

Michael Winslow Brown · 32:17

Yeah, I mean the the capacity to hold risk is definitely something that I've always been quite familiar with. And and yeah, you know, training me in the Navy and then you know really applying the the same thing, you know, through building our company. it was all risk on all the time. And yes, my nervous system was very well adapted to that. In fact, you know, you know, early in my personal development journey, I remember sitting at my first personal development retreat with the with the coach who would eventually become my mentor, Philip McKernan.

And and I raised my hand, I was like, I put my back against the wall over and over and over in order to elicit high performance. And that that felt like a really big breakthrough to recognize, like, whoa. Like, I think there was a deep underlying fear that if I didn't have this pressure, I wouldn't actually be able to do the things I was doing. So I would create these high pressure situations over and over. And in the secondary order effect of that is that, you know, getting into a little brain chemistry or neuroscience is, you know, when we make a bet and it pays off, we need to make a bigger and bigger bet to get the same level of response each time. You know, it's called hedonic adaptation. And that's exactly what I was doing. I was making bets, they were paying off, and then I was swinging bigger and bigger just to get to that same level of satisfaction. So, you know, not only did I have this tremendous capacity for risk, I was actually addicted to, you know, the dopamine and the and the the neuroscience of of making swing big and and having it pay off. And so that compounded into a very dangerous combination over time.

Divya Brown · 33:57

Yeah, and I I totally relate. I mean, I didn't have the honor of serving in our military as you did and having being in such dangerous circumstances. But the cortisol levels that I felt working in private equity, you know, reporting to boards, Brian probably has the same feelings still left in his body, right? It takes this this individual so much time to get to the place where you can endure that all the time, every day, somebody questioning, asking, requesting, and you just live in that state. And you start winning because you are doing so many things. And then you're like, well I have to win bigger. This year we're gonna grow by like 10%. We're not we're gonna grow by 30%. We're gonna grow by fifty.

And then the things that they're saying that make no sense seem to make sense. And and you realize you've lost yourself in it, at least I had.

Bryan Sanchez · 34:54

You had, but and and here's the you know, bit of the or origin story of Still Ambitious, which which actually involves both of you, which was Divya, when you stepped away from your CEO position, your move was to go on a ten day silent retreat. And

Divya Brown · 35:13

Right.

Bryan Sanchez · 35:14

And that idea never even crossed my mind. Like I I didn't know you could do that. and I I I didn't do that. I started, you know, going doing a bunch of other things. very intense. My my schedule looked just as busy as as it had when I was running a ten billion dollar company two months later. And I was on the cusp of doing a lot of what you did, Mike, when you after you sold your company, which was go find cool companies with cool people and invest in those businesses, sit on their boards and and take a bunch more risk and do something even bigger than I had just done. And, you know, my number wasn't a hundred million, but the my capacity to move my gold posts is incredible.

Okay. And at that moment I was like, I gotta keep going. I gotta keep going. And and and one of the things I'm so deeply grateful for is I heard you on a podcast, not your own, a different podcast, about 18 months ago, and you told this story that you're telling us now. And I thought, I am doing that. That's what I'm doing. I've got this weird relationship with achievement and money, and it is it is subconsciously in control of everything I'm doing. And so hearing honestly, both of you who in different ways have figured out a way to step away from that lifestyle. Mike, you've talked a lot about how the subconscious is a terrible, terrible master.

And yet it's there, it's inside us, it gets wired by society, by our parents, by our peers. And then at some point we have to have sovereignty and reprogram it. And Divya, I know this is something you've done a lot with with you know various so let's talk about it for a second.

Divya Brown · 37:24

I'm so passionate about this area. Mm-hmm. So I l I love I love how you go into it, Mike, in the book and and really focus on those patterns.

Michael Winslow Brown · 37:26

Yeah.

Bryan Sanchez · 37:33

Yeah. So tell us about those patterns, Mike, and how have you how have you begun to rewire? What did it take?

Michael Winslow Brown · 37:41

Yeah, so you know, I I think that in many ways, we use money and achievement as a scoreboard because it's the default. It's the one that's handed to us, it's the one that society says is is the value of your worth. And in the absence of actually asking the question of like, what do I actually want? What's the life that I I want to live? We just get handed this scoreboard and and take it on as our own, even though we maybe never consciously chose it.

And I I would have kept going on that path, you know, for for years and years, but this ill-fated e-commerce company really really forced this reckoning of like, okay, wait a minute. So here I am, I've done all the things to make me successful. I buy this company and it is, like I said, an unmitigated disaster. I start losing money shortly after close, and I'm shoveling a hundred thousand dollars into this company every single month just to keep it alive.

and I took I I took money from my friends, you know, I and I took a bank loan to buy this thing. And I knew very quickly it wasn't gonna work. Like, like it was the writing was on the wall, you know, months after I closed. But I was so afraid of failing. I was so afraid of letting my friends down. I was so afraid of what that would look like. I just put my head down and tried to work myself out of it. I just thought, you know, I can make anything happen. And I really did have a belief that like I can do anything I put my mind to. That's something that you know we internalize again from well-meaning parents and coaches and teachers when we're young. So even though I knew subconsciously this thing wasn't gonna work, like I just kept going. And I I I say now often that I I wish upon everyone a failure that brings you to your knees, that doesn't make you start completely over, because that's what it, that's what it took for me. and I am so grateful and so lucky that I didn't have to start over because you know I I very well could have. And I I now view it as the greatest gift of my life. Like I look back and you know in in many ways, I carried the arrogance of someone who had never lost. And and this this universal you know reckoning.

Michael Winslow Brown · 40:02

Really gave me this incredible gift of humility and compassion and empathy and like understanding that life is not up and to the right all of the time. And part of me still wonders if I engineered this failure on purpose just to see what it feels like. To maybe, maybe like get it out of the way or something, and you know, living in this prison of success. And the crazy thing about success, right, is that yeah, I think there's a there's an idea that the more successful you become, the easier it gets. I would actually argue that it gets harder and harder the more successful you become. And and the cost of failure from a psychological from a psychological perspective becomes greater and greater and greater. So the so the better you do, the scarier failure becomes. And at l at least in my own life.

I actually was incredible at only doing things I thought I could win, like only playing games where I was pretty certain of the outcome. And you know, externally, everybody thought I was this wild risk taker and maybe that's what how it appeared on the surface. But inside, I knew that I never actually pushed myself beyond my my limits or capabilities. I would I would very carefully engineer the game so that I could always win and never face the idea of a real failure. And know, when this landed at my doorstep and I realized I couldn't get out of it, it was liberating. I I felt so free on the backside of of this, you know, crazy experience, very public failure, coming out and going, here I am, like I'm still intact. And in fact, I feel better. I feel I I like this pressure all of a sudden is evaporated and like I can kind of do whatever I want to do and swing for the fences and and you know, push myself beyond my limits because I no longer carry this fear of of what might happen.

Bryan Sanchez · 42:01

And so how long did that take, Mike? And what and what were you you know, those were some hard days, you write about in the book, you know, tension in your in your very young new marriage to Claire. and and so it didn't come easy. I mean, you I mean that was a hard, hard set of lessons, hard reckoning. But what did you then do? You know, Divya went and did a ten day retreat.

Michael Winslow Brown · 42:11

Okay.

Bryan Sanchez · 42:31

And and she was already she was already pretty calm and and pretty centered going into it and then she came back, you know, even better. What did you have to do?

Michael Winslow Brown · 42:43

Yeah, so the the the wild thing is that I'd actually started down the path of personal development many years before this all happened. And you know, it would be a much neater story to to kind of make this very linear thing that this reckoning was my first, you know, exposure to any of these ideas. But the fact is, I had been deep down this path since 2016. You know, I met my first coach.

Bryan Sanchez · 42:50

Mm. Mm-hmm.

Michael Winslow Brown · 43:11

And I had my first psychedelic experience and and had been meditating for many years. So I was already down the path. And in some ways that made it even more confounding. there was a part of me that was like, you know, I should have known better. Like I was already, you know, and but when I bought my e-commerce company, I'd already started my coaching career. you know, I had I had been kind of coaching as you know, I would say a side hustle now. I didn't feel like it at the time. And then but I felt this lack of worthiness. I felt like

There was a part of me that's like, did I just get lucky? Like, am I really good at this? And so I felt like I needed another win to really be qualified to be a great coach. And so that's where the e-commerce company came from. And be careful what you wish for. yeah, I I didn't get the win that I thought I wanted, but in the failure in so many ways actually made me, you know, the man that I am today and and the coach that I am today and gave me so much more.

But it but it wasn't a linear process. I had I had been down this road for many years. But what I what I recognized on the backside was, you know, this is my calling. I I am actually, this was a detour, this was a distraction, this was a you know a path that I went down again to from from this proving energy, from this lack of worthiness place. And so, you know, I knew what to do.

on the backside of that. And that's that's double down on on therapy and coaching and really understanding my relationship to money and unwinding like how did I get here? Even though I was aware of some of these, you know, this putting my back against the wall tendency. I'd I'd said it, you know, in a room of my peers five or six years before and like here I am again. And I think that was the the confounding thing is like the awareness of these tendencies and these patterns was not enough to actually interrupt the pattern. And you know

Yeah, there's there's a there's a saying, you know, we will never change until the pain of staying the same outweighs the pain of change. And you know, now after after the e-commerce failure, it was like, okay, something's gotta give. Like, I can't keep doing this. And I and I can't just keep kind of studying these patterns and like understand where they come they're coming from. Like I need to take action. I need to actually do something different now. And

Michael Winslow Brown · 45:35

and and that is where a lot of the understanding of relationship to money came from. Like I went back and looked at these childhood stories of like, you know, the Lamborghini on the wall and seeing my parents fight about money, and you know, the the societal scoreboard and understanding where the hundred million dollar number came from. Like all of that excavation kind of resulted in getting really clear on and and asking the question, I think for the first time at that point, like, what is the actual life I want to live?

And like how much does that cost? And like, you know, what do I want to do with my precious time here on this earth? Like and that's where, you know, where the path really started to unfold for me.

Bryan Sanchez · 46:15

So you got very specific about the money, and and you and you've developed a whole system that you write about in the book, about you know how much money you actually need. And I think a central thesis that I think a lot of people need to hear, especially people who've had a reasonable amount of success, 20, 25 years of hard work, hustle. Like you don't need a hundred million dollars, right?

Michael Winslow Brown · 46:35

Yep.

Bryan Sanchez · 46:43

And and and and the thing you've taught me, Mike, that has been really powerful for me, life changing, frankly, is you can you can you can be rich now. And and rich means a lot of different things. It's y broadly defined, but

If you get really clear about what you need and want in life, all of a sudden you realize you probably don't need what you thought you need. I mean, t t tell us about that. Like tell us about your life. Cause like you just have the best life, you know. And and and it's in some ways, if I if I think about all my hyperachieving business school friends and the people Divi and I hang out with in Houston, you know, they're running, running, running, and and and and I'm not sure.

They're living their best life. But you are. So how'd you do it?

Michael Winslow Brown · 47:34

Yeah, great question. You know, so one of the the fundamental things to come out of this journey for me is the central thesis of the book, which which I call the law of now, which is you know essentially saying that wealth can only be experienced in the present because wealth is a state of being. You know, wealth is a felt sense of of aliveness, of freedom. Right. And that's what we're actually trying to get from the money.

From the achievements is a is an internal feeling. And so, you know, the the the question is, well, how do I get more of that feeling more of the time? And is it already available? So let's just take, you know, a a want someone might have. Like maybe maybe I want you know, a $20 million beach house in in Malibu. Okay. So the question is, what feeling am I actually trying to get from that house, from owning that thing?

And when I imagine that thing, I imagine being surrounded by friends and family, like getting to share this amazing experience, laughing around the fire, looking at the ocean. Can I get that feeling in my life right now? Yeah, I think, you know, 95%, 96%, 98%, the setting, the set and setting of of the backdrop of Malibu is pretty amazing. But you know, spending that experience with my friends and family you know, surrounding the campfire, I don't need a giant house to do that. Like I there, there's a lot of ways to to get there.

And so just recognizing that that a lot of what we are chasing is actually available in the present moment if we'll only stop and look. Right. It's it's all here. The feeling is available to us. And that doesn't, it it's not be happy with what you have, right? Because yes, part of it is being happy with what you have or understanding the incredible gifts that that we all have, you know, just just by virtue of waking up every morning.

But it's not mutually exclusive. Like I can imagine that it would be cool to still host my friends and family in a giant house, but both can be true at the same time. Like I can still work toward that dream, but I can I can be alive inside of my life. I can live my life fully right now without making that conditional on getting the thing that that I want or I think that I want. Right. And so so that really is the central thesis of the book. And

Michael Winslow Brown · 49:53

You know, for me the the process was what makes me feel alive in my life. And you know, I've I've worked with with many, many you know, post-exit founders and you know high achieving people. And and here's what I found is that at some point, the day we become wealthy is the day we realize it's not about you, it's not about me. So so for me, starting to to help other people understand, you know, the lessons that I've learned.

really felt like it was filling up my cup. And I was like, okay, I'm just gonna keep pulling on this thread. And the more people I helped, the better I felt. And in many ways, actually delivered the thing that I thought the money was going to deliver, which is this internal sense of of aliveness and freedom and fulfillment really comes from serving others. And so I found the more I oriented my life around getting really clear on what I value and then serving others.

I finally actually started to get the feeling that that I was chasing all along. And so I just kept doubling down and doubling down until I got to this place, you know, now where, you know, if I if you deposited, you know, $10 million in my bank account tomorrow, or if I got a million followers on Twitter tomorrow, I wouldn't actually change anything. Yes, there might be some sense of ease that starts to open up. But like I, you know, I wake up.

I ride my bike, I meditate and I write or I or I coach and like that's what I want to be doing with my life. So I don't need another dollar to do that. Right. Yes, there's still, you know, the question of scale and impact and all of these things. And we can kind of get into to how I how I think about that. But fundamentally, I wouldn't do anything different. And like that's wealth. That is the sense that that I was always hoping that the success would deliver.

Divya Brown · 51:47

Mike, I'm gonna just push you a little bit on that because as somebody and you were there too, and you work with so many founders and entrepreneurs, when you're in it, it's so hard to see.

What wealth is, right? It's so hard to to just create that space where you're like, okay, this is what I want. It's almost like you can't the only thing you want is the the thing, the KPI on the table, right? Or or on the scoreboard. And so what do you think that process is like and the how of it? You know, how how do you work with people in those moments when it's so obvious? Obviously, we're all at a little bit of a different stage, but I think what is awesome about what you're working through is that in all stages you've kind of reflected that you had these moments, these patterns that were ongoing, and now you've realized the subconscious. How do we like work through that in the process that somebody else might not be in at this point?

Michael Winslow Brown · 52:49

Yeah, I mean I you know, this is the the big question, right? Is like how do I actually unwind all of this stuff that I've been accumulating, you know, from childhood till now. And by the way, in many ways it's worked. Like the the thing that got me here, the thing that made me successful is now the thing that I'm turning this this process on and asking, like, is this still serving me? And and

Divya Brown · 53:13

And that's I mean, we hear it all the time. It's like, well, I'm okay, I I've made it this far. And it's like, okay, yeah, no I mean, no judgment, right? It's like there's no judgment in this this conversation. It's more that, what do you want?

Michael Winslow Brown · 53:18

Yeah.

Michael Winslow Brown · 53:27

Yeah, and and and you know again the ironic thing is the thing that makes us successful eventually becomes our greatest limitation. And and so you know thing that that people often ask when they're thinking about stepping into this work is will I lose my edge? And my answer is if your edge is driven by darkness, if it's driven by lack, if it's driven by not enoughness, if it's driven by proving and a chip on the shoulder, probably. You will you will probably find that as you turn inward.

That starts to evaporate. But the thing that you develop in its place is so much more sustainable. So I call this dirty fuel versus clean fuel. You know, most of us high achievers are running primarily on dirty fuel, you know, from a young age. I'm gonna I'm gonna prove to the world, I'm gonna prove to myself, I'm gonna prove to my dad, like what whatever, whatever your fuel source is typically is focused on me, right? It's all about me, and I'm gonna show the world. And then

Repatterning a clean fuel is realizing it's not about me at all. In fact, you know, I mean, it it it when you serve others, the fuel source becomes much more sustainable. And it's not binary, right? It's not, it's not dirty fuel or clean fuel. It's like, what's the primary flavor? Like, what is the motivation? Because, you know, as as much work as I've done and as much as as I feel like I've I've shifted over to this clean fuel source.

course there's still a part of me that wants the validation that that you know wants my book to sell a million copies because that's gonna make me feel some certain kind of way right so it's not that that goes away it just stops being the primary driver and now I can I can look when those when those thoughts and emotions arrive I can look back at that and go yeah okay that's I my meditation teacher Bill taught me a funny thing to call your ego by a pet name. So my ego is Mikey. And it's like, that's Mikey that wants that ador that adoration. But that's actually not why I'm doing this. Right. And so, you know, I can kind of identify that when it starts to arise and just recognize like that's the nature of being human. Of course we all want to be loved. We all want to be praised. We you know, we all want more money or more whatever. And that's that's a totally normal thing to have human desire. And you're never gonna st you're never gonna stop, you know, the desire from arising.

Bryan Sanchez · 55:45

Yeah.

Michael Winslow Brown · 55:45

What you can do is hold it with an open palm, right? I can hold those desires without making it mean anything about me. Right? I can want more money without it without making my worth contingent on whether I ever get the money or not. Right. And so that's the process that I I kind of walk people through is like, first of all, what do you want? What do you actually want? What what what are you doing all of the more for, right?

If you want to start a second company after your $10 billion company, what are you hoping that's gonna give you? What what feeling are you actually chasing? Okay, then what are the things that are actually gonna create that feeling, right? Like presence with family, you know, adventure, you know, taking on, like learning new things, serving others. That's actually where those feelings come from. It's not biggering and biggering. So, how do we start to shift over to those things? And then, you know, i i I think of it as like removing obscurations.

So yeah.

Divya Brown · 56:43

Sorry, could we pause for a second? Brian, is Mike coming in clear to you?

Bryan Sanchez · 56:47

He was he was being distorted, actually.

Divya Brown · 56:50

Yeah, okay. just for like thirty seconds, right, Brian?

Michael Winslow Brown · 56:51

bummer.

Bryan Sanchez · 56:55

Yeah, yeah, just for about thirty seconds. I don't know how to rewind you, but we should rewind you a little bit here.

Michael Winslow Brown · 57:04

Well I was on a fucking roll. I'm I can't. There's no way.

Divya Brown · 57:06

I know, I feel bad, but but I was scared you were gonna keep going and it was gonna get worse, so I just wanted make sure. Okay.

Bryan Sanchez · 57:11

Yeah. It's wor it's working now. Okay, let me let me I want l I'm gonna pivot you, Mike, with a question now on that, 'cause this is my favorite part. So so Mike, the the dirty fuel, clean fuel analogy deeply, deeply resonates for me. I think it's it's a full chapter in your book, chapter eight. you've been talking to me about it for about a year, and I so relate to

One, the power of dirty fuel. I mean, I think of it as like a rocket, you know, those big boosters that are required to burn super hot in order to get you into orbit. And in some ways there's nothing wrong with them for a while, because you you kind of need it, depending on your circumstance in life, to get you out of gravitational pool.

The challenge for a lot of us is we never drop the boosters and move to a much more tranquil or benign form of fuel that that burns a lot less hot. But actually, because you're in orbit, and and most of us who've had 20, 25 years of sustained success, we're in orbit. Whether we acknowledge it or not, we're in orbit.

And now we can move in orbit much more easily on a different fuel source. But it doesn't feel the same. The the rocket doesn't doesn't vibrate the same way that it did before, and we get very conditioned and used to that. And so it very personally for me, I know I'm making this switch, but I wake up two days out of seven. Deeply desiring the dirty fuel, like really wanting it in my life. Because I I love how it kind of jolts me into into action. And and yet I know, I know it's well past its useful purpose for me. I know it's actually done things to my my physical health that have been

Bryan Sanchez · 59:27

really dangerous actually. And I know even for my mental health, it it it it it leaves you in a state of like perpetual busyness and agitation. And I no longer want that. Like that is taking away from life. And it and it is doing what you you know you've so so done such an effective job counseling me on, which is hey you can live a spacious

Enjoyable life where you're doing great work for the people you love and and doing it with ease. You don't have to do it the way you did it for the last 20 years. There's there's no hero in that. But that switch is hard. And I I just want to dwell on that for a second because if there's one message I I would love our listeners to come away with is

There's a moment in your lives, and in many cases you're right there, probably. If not there today, you'll be there within two to five years, where you need to make this switch in order to quote unquote be rich now, because you really can be rich now. What do people need to do? What do you counsel people to do every day?

Michael Winslow Brown · 01:00:42

Yeah, this this is this really is the crux of the of the of the whole mechanism because dirty fuel is so effective. It does burn hot. You know, that place of lack drives us to great heights. And you know, we can you can even see it with someone like Elon Musk, who who publicly admits he lives a tortured existence, right? And I am so glad that we have Elon's out there pushing the world forward so that I don't have to, but I don't want his life, right? Like that that in in many ways, you know, it looks it looks tough. And and so switching to the to clean fuel, you do have to repattern to you know the the fact that it doesn't burn as hot because you know that proving energy it it does it does make you feel alive of like, you know, I'm gonna do this thing. And the you know the central mechanism of the switch is

Learning how to feel enough in your own skin without achievements. Well, necessarily then, as you switch to clean fuel, you can't drive yourself forward by not feeling enough because it's just not there. That that button doesn't work anymore. Right. And so, and and by the way, like I still try to reach for it. You know, some days I'm like, I should be growing faster, I should be selling more books, I should, I should have more followers.

And I try to like negative self-talk my way into it. And I'm just going, like, because I know it doesn't mean anything about me. Like my follower count, my My books, it doesn't mean anything about who I am. And so it actually just stops working. I can't, I can't tap that lever anymore. And, you know, in that, there is an adjustment period of recognizing that that it's not going to work the same way it did. And and you know, certain questions still arise. I mean, I I have a very dear friend, you know, with a massive audience who's been wildly successful. And and, you know, and he's built for it.

And he he will push me and and I'll get really excited. I'll be like, you know, why are you the world's best kept secret? Like, come on, like here's the playbook, like let's go. And I do it for two or three days. I'm like, yeah, I'm gonna really do it. And then I'm

Michael Winslow Brown · 01:02:55

And I'm fulfilled and I'm happy and I'm doing the things that I know I'm supposed to be doing in a way that's authentic to me, in a way that feels life-giving, that fills up my cup. And, you know, I I just have this unwavering belief that the right people who are supposed to find my work and resonate with my work are gonna come into my universe. And whether that's 1000 or 1 million, it doesn't say anything about the quality of the work. And

You know, we are so addicted to scale. We think scale is the only way to make impact or you know or or be worthy. And and that that scale is actually the only measure. And and giving that up is hard. I mean it it really is you know letting go of the idea that that scale is the measure of your worth. But now, you know.

What what I'm measuring my worth or measuring my success by is like how it actually feels from an internal perspective and and how I feel about myself and how I feel about my days. And you the reality is is you know, I don't need anything else to to feel and and by the way, some stuff, some money, some success is better than none. Like I've been rich and broke. I prefer to be rich. Like I yeah.

I have this amazing house. I have my house on the mountains. Like I have an abundance, you know, more than I could could ever want. But realizing like more stuff, more success, more money is not going to deliver on the thing. It is, it's so liberating to wake up and go, like, I know I'm doing exactly what I'm supposed to do. And if I just keep waking up and doing that, like the universe is going to take care of the rest. The book will sell or

Like like it's it's all gonna work out either way, but I'm just gonna keep doing what I'm doing. And I'm gonna meet the opportunity with with right effort, with, with a right relationship to what I'm doing. I still gotta do my part, right? I mean, I suffered for this book. I poured three years of my life into it. It was really hard. And now, like there's nothing else I can do. Like I'm gonna I'm gonna go on podcasts and put it out. And like, but the way the book's gonna work is by people handing it to other people and go, hey, I I read this and I thought of you.

Michael Winslow Brown · 01:05:18

Right. I can't control whether that happens or not. And so there is this peace in knowing like I've done my part and and now the rest is not up to me.

Bryan Sanchez · 01:05:27

I I have bought at least a thousand copies of your book in Si serious. they have not yet showed up in my office, but as soon as I get I'm gonna be handing out to everybody. I I wanna I wanna actually flag one thing about your book, Mike, that I find really, really special. you changed your name to to to go in the book. Let tell us about that.

Michael Winslow Brown · 01:05:48

Yeah, so I'll kind of give you the reasons in in least from least important to most important. So you know the first one is Mike Brown turns out to be the most the 19th most most common name in the US. So for for marketing and and distribution purposes, you know, there's plenty of Mike Brown's that have written books. I actually considered publishing under an anonymous pen name for sort of this clean fuel reason. Like it there was almost

Like, man, could I share my life's work without actually you know having to to put my face on it? And would that be more impactful? But then I realized that, you know, I share so much of my story. I think my story needs to be verifiable. And so I decided to to take my wife's name as my middle name. So I was born Michael William Brown. and I I am where I am because of of her.

And you know, after the e-commerce disaster, you know, I told her, Hey, I I I want to double down on this coaching. Like I know this is my calling, you know, and I and this is where I want to go. And and she runs a a marketing agency and she just said, I got you. Not wasn't conditional. There was no, you know, quid pro quo, like, okay, you have six months to figure this out. She just she was just like, I got you. And and so she was the primary breadwinner for the last three years. And by the way, I'm really proud of what I've

What I've grown with my coaching and my practice. And you know, I would, I would consider my practice quite successful, but trying to keep up with her is something I I abandoned a long time ago. You know, she's grown her company even faster. But just to feel held by another person is and and maybe this will resonate with the high performers on the show. You know, we when you grow up as smart and capable, there's just this sort of sense of like putting a team on my back. You know, I'm I'm you know.

tend to be to be successful and and be able to handle situations that maybe other people can't. So I just, you know, I take start taking responsibility for for other people. And you know, I I've I've got it. Right. And so maybe, maybe that manifests as like, you know, keeping underperforming employees because of like, well, I'll just make up this, I'll make up the difference. Right. And and it shows up, I think, in a lot of high performers' lives.

Michael Winslow Brown · 01:08:08

Meeting and marrying my wife was totally mind blowing. And there was a day during, you know, the the failed e-commerce company when I just told her, like, I don't want to get out of bed today. Like I can't open my laptop and face the shitstorm that's that's in my inbox. Like I just can't do it. And I I think a good wife would have like, Honey, you got this. And my wife said, Stay in bed. I'll run your company today.

It was just mind-blowing to be like, whoa, like my partner has got my back, and she's smart and capable enough to run my company, probably better than I can. And like, what an amazing feeling for someone that, you know, for 40 years had trained myself relentlessly to like never rely on another person to be able to fully let go and just go, yeah, she's got me. And so

You know, for me, this book wouldn't exist without her. And I wanted to honor her contribution to, you know, the man I become and and giving me the space and and allowing me to, you know, pour three years into this thing with with very little to show for it, you know, from a from a financial, you know, from a KPI perspective until now. what a gift. And so so that's why I decided to publish under Michael Winslow Brown. I I really like the sound of it.

Bryan Sanchez · 01:09:28

Well, I it's beautiful. It's a beautiful story and your your beautiful wife, Claire Winslow, herself is is a is a real dynamo. I've I've really had the pleasure of getting to know her. Also a native Houstonian, so Divi and I can relate to her.

Divya Brown · 01:09:46

Yeah.

Bryan Sanchez · 01:09:46

She's a really special person. someday I think we need to have Claire on this show. 'cause she's she's a force unto herself. And my wife, Anna, so much of what you just said, I could say about Anna and and supporting me through some really, really tough times, especially a a little bout of cancer ten years ago. And and it's it's amazing when your partner is there for you in every way you need. So really special. Really special.

Divya Brown · 01:10:18

Mike, that means so much as a female leader, when you recognize just how your partner can step up in that way and truly be greater than you and be humble enough to say it out loud and not, you know, mm confuse it with, well, I was going through something. But really giving her that space to to own her own power. Thank you for sharing that.

Michael Winslow Brown · 01:10:47

Yeah, it's it's something that that's really important and I don't want to go you know too far down the the hot button topics of politics and gender and all of that, but but a real gift in our marriage has been able to really let go of gender constructs and just inhabit whatever role is, you know, most pression at any any given time, you know. And so to have her, you know, step up as, you know, provider.

And and me be more of a nurturer, you know, in in different seasons. I think it's just such a gift to not box ourselves into what society says traditional gender roles need to be. And by the way, if that works in your marriage and that's that's how you thrive, like like more power to you. But for us, having the ability to inhabit fluidly and not have a fixed identity as to what we're supposed to be doing has just been so empowering and such a gift and resulting in a one plus one is greater than two scenario.

Bryan Sanchez · 01:11:43

My co-host here is is a pretty badass provider and an amazing person and an amazing mom. She kinda she kinda combines it all. So we're we're surrounded by amazing women, which I'm really grateful for.

Michael Winslow Brown · 01:12:00

Yeah, it's a gift.

Bryan Sanchez · 01:12:01

Mike, unfortunately we we're coming up on time. we could go another hour, which just says to me we might need to bring you back. but but how can how can people get a hold of you? Tell us when the the book is officially coming out and and how can people find you either for coaching services, your your your retreats that you run. I've been to some your unbreakable retreat at your amazing

Michael Winslow Brown · 01:12:10

Go.

Bryan Sanchez · 01:12:28

House in the Denver foothills. give us the facts and we'll put it in the show notes as well.

Michael Winslow Brown · 01:12:35

Yes, you can you can get a a a free preview of chapter one of the book at berichnow.com. right now the Kickstarter is open for another couple of weeks. I'm not sure when this will be released. and then you know the the initial pre-orders will ship probably in November and then looking at December for the book to be live on Amazon and and available everywhere.

I write on Twitter for for social media purposes. that's my that's my favorite platform. So my my Twitter handle is Brown underscore C O. And if you download the free chapter of the book, you'll subscribe to my newsletter, my other favorite long form platform. And yeah, unbreakablewealth.com is kind of the mastermind and the retreats and and all of the other stuff. But if I had one ask, get the free chapter, see if it's something that that you're into and and go buy the book.

Bryan Sanchez · 01:13:30

Awesome. Well I've read it cover I've read it cover to cover. I love it. So Mike, thank you. A pleasure to have you here.

Divya Brown · 01:13:31

Awesome.

Divya Brown · 01:13:36

Thank you, Mike.

Michael Winslow Brown · 01:13:39

Yeah, such a great conversation. I really appreciate you both and and I'm really excited for this podcast. I I think it's gonna be a really big deal, so it's it's really cool to be a guest.

Bryan Sanchez · 01:13:48

Awesome. Thanks.

Divya Brown · 01:13:49

Thank you.